Shadowing practice: Rock and Roll Hall of Famer Stewart Copeland — Fear{less} with Tim Ferriss

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  1. I'm Tim Ferriss, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now TV host.0:06
  2. I've spent my entire adult life asking questions, then scouring the globe to find the answers.0:12
  3. On this show, I'll share the secrets of pioneers who have faced their own fears.0:17
  4. We'll dig into the hard times, big mistakes, tough decisions, and how they got through it all.0:22
  5. The goal isn't to be fearless.0:28
  6. The goal is to learn to fear less.0:30
  7. Welcome to Fearless.0:35
  8. I'm your host, Tim Ferriss, and on this stage we'll be deconstructing world -class performers of all different types to uncover the specific tactics they've used to overcome doubt, tackle0:37
  9. some of their hardest decisions, and ultimately succeed on their own terms.0:46
  10. So imagine yourself a founding member of one of the most successful rock bands of all time.0:50
  11. What happens when you break up?0:54
  12. For many that might be the end of the story, but for my guest tonight, who is just getting started with no prior experience, he went on to score films0:56
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  1. for Francis Ford Coppola and Oliver Stone, composed for ballet and opera, and even take pilgrimages to Africa where he played drums with hungry lions.1:02
  2. I am not kidding.1:10
  3. He's a founding member of the police, a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and for the last three decades, he's been one of Rolling Stones' top1:11
  4. ten drummers of all time.1:18
  5. Please welcome musician, master, and madman Stuart Copeland.1:20
  6. Alright.1:34
  7. It's so nice to see you again.1:38
  8. It's so nice to see you again.1:39
  9. And we're going to have a lot of time to explore all sorts of fun stuff.1:41
  10. I thought we would start with a video.1:44
  11. So let's take a video so you guys know exactly who we have in front of us.1:46
  12. One of only two drum solos I've ever done in my life.2:03
  13. Really?2:06
  14. Stand machine.2:43
  15. You know the weirdest thing about that performance there, Letterman, huge, you know, thing.2:45
  16. I played with her band.2:52
  17. It took me decades of writing music and practicing and doing my roots to get up all the skill.2:53
  18. But at the end of the thing, I threw my sticks over there.2:58
  19. And that was the big hit of the appearance.3:01
  20. Which is an illustration of a point that it's the dumb shit.3:07
  21. Never mind the decades of dedication to music and craft and everything else.3:11
  22. It's the dumb shit.3:19
  23. Practice throwing your sticks, kids.3:20
  24. So you said while we were watching that that this was one of only two drum solos you've ever done?3:21
  25. Yes.3:26
  26. I don't really believe in drum solos.3:27
  27. Even though I loved them when I was 14.3:29
  28. They're real hard work.3:32
  29. It's usually just a chance for the band to sell merchandise.3:34
  30. So this is one of them.3:39
  31. It was Letterman.3:40
  32. They're doing drum solos.3:41
  33. The other was in the wilds of Africa, you see.3:42
  34. Oh yes.3:46
  35. How did that come together?3:46
  36. How did that even come into reality?3:48
  37. Somebody had the bright idea of me going to Africa in search of rhythm.3:50
  38. And American music.3:55
  39. Because of course one of our most profound cultural characteristics in our country is American music.3:57
  40. The origins of which are of course Africa.4:04
  41. You found a very receptive audience for your second solo.4:06
  42. Well we were out there with a film crew and we had no idea what we were doing.4:09
  43. Some of the best things happen when you don't know what you're doing.4:13
  44. And then a buddy of ours, a Khashoggi family, a billionaire or Arabic family, owned a ranch near Mount Kenya.4:16
  45. And so we went out there and they had giraffes and all this stuff like that.4:23
  46. So we shot everything.4:28
  47. And one of the things they had was a pride of lions.4:29
  48. He said, hey, let's put the drum set with the lions.4:32
  49. And there Stuart will be playing drums and the lions will be there.4:35
  50. So they built this chicken wire cage.4:38
  51. It's not lion wire.4:42
  52. So we had to festoon the cage with meat to make them interested in the cage.4:44
  53. Because otherwise they're just taking a nap and you know, who cares?4:49
  54. That's not a shot.4:51
  55. So we had to put the meat around there.4:52
  56. And eventually I fear a thump like that.4:54
  57. And it's one guy, big guy right there.4:57
  58. Holy crap.5:00
  59. And then the other one's reaching under the cage and like the drums going there.5:01
  60. And I can see this arm.5:04
  61. I think, holy shit.5:05
  62. That was the bad -astest drum solo I ever did in my life.5:08
  63. It's like audio bear spray.5:18
  64. There you go.5:22
  65. Yeah, yeah.5:23
  66. Well, you know, their ears are not equipped.5:23
  67. My snare drum is loud.5:25
  68. It will bring a bird down out of the sky.5:28
  69. And so those lions, you know, they got big teeth.5:31
  70. They got a lot of hair.5:34
  71. There are some claws that they can do some damage.5:36
  72. But I got a snare drum made out of chrome.5:38
  73. So as it so happens, I've only done two drum solos in my life.5:42
  74. And so let's watch one of them.5:47
  75. Great.5:55
  76. Ah, you're getting power mad.5:59
  77. Ah, you could feel the power rising up in your loins.6:01
  78. You're a primate, an alpha male, the great silverback making a great noise.6:04
  79. Because you've got your crash and your kick landing hard.6:10
  80. So that video is actually from the first day, the first time we ever met.6:21
  81. And one of the things that so impressed me about Stuart was, A, you saw the machine at action, right?6:25
  82. I mean, just incredible.6:31
  83. But you're an extremely good teacher.6:32
  84. Oh, really?6:35
  85. Well, the result.6:36
  86. You're going to show the result of all that?6:37
  87. I'm not going to show the result, but I'll tell them.6:38
  88. He was totally rocked.6:39
  89. Completely nailed it.6:41
  90. Four or five days later, I had to get up in front of a sold out audience for foreigner and drum, hot -blooded, in front of a completely sold out6:42
  91. crowd.6:53
  92. And that was just such a tremendous experience for me.6:54
  93. And I wanted to actually read a quote of yours that I think ties into how music for me in that moment went from being something very intimidating and sterile6:56
  94. to very fun.7:06
  95. So this is from Stuart's book, Strange Things Happen.7:07
  96. That's the great thing about music.7:11
  97. If you played it, it's correct.7:13
  98. The worst musical train wreck hurts absolutely no one.7:15
  99. It's all part of the show.7:17
  100. In fact, it's how we get to the great stuff.7:19
  101. There's no penalty for skating on the edge or throwing ourselves off the cliff.7:21
  102. So we do.7:25
  103. And this seems like it's true of music.7:27
  104. It's true for a lot of life.7:30
  105. Can you provide any more context?7:31
  106. It's not true of paragliding.7:33
  107. It's not true of skiing.7:37
  108. Right.7:41
  109. Definitely don't want to literally hurl yourself on a cliff.7:42
  110. But when you are trying to say introduce someone to music, how do you think about doing it?7:46
  111. Playing music, that is.7:51
  112. Introduce someone to playing music.7:52
  113. It is that thing of throwing yourself off a cliff and not judging yourself.7:54
  114. That's the most important thing is to hit a drum.7:58
  115. Hey, it makes a sound.8:01
  116. Cool.8:02
  117. Or sit on the piano.8:02
  118. Just hit some notes.8:03
  119. And just listen to the notes.8:05
  120. That doesn't have to be Mozart.8:05
  121. Music was designed as a campfire experience.8:08
  122. I've thought long and hard over the decades about what is music for?8:11
  123. It's obviously for something.8:15
  124. We are evolved through all culture, all history.8:17
  125. Music has been there.8:20
  126. It must have a purpose, a behavioral purpose.8:22
  127. And a couple theories I have.8:26
  128. One is social cohesion.8:29
  129. And I feel that in my travels across the fourth world.8:31
  130. You feel that music bonds a community.8:34
  131. So that's very important.8:37
  132. But the other really important thing is sex.8:38
  133. And you may laugh salatiously.8:42
  134. But it's true that particularly for teenagers and young adults, music is the key to sex.8:45
  135. It is the key to body language that would be unacceptable without music playing.8:51
  136. The things people do on the dance floor, can you imagine without music?8:56
  137. Oh my God!9:00
  138. And so music, it unlocks the door so that we can show our genetic wares to each other.9:01
  139. And what pelvic thrusting has to do with genetic superiority?9:13
  140. I don't know.9:17
  141. But music does seem to have a very important function.9:18
  142. And so you ask, how do you bring somebody who's not a musician or how to explain music?9:22
  143. Well, it's just pick up an instrument and make a sound and listen to the beauty of it.9:28
  144. And that's enough.9:33
  145. But there's a communication part as well.9:35
  146. And I believe that although I personally am a great beneficiary of specialization in our evolved society, I get to play the music and you get to listen.9:38
  147. But I think that's not how it was evolved for our hunter -gatherer societies way back before civilization.9:49
  148. I think it was something that we all did together.9:55
  149. And indeed, when you travel to the small indigenous communities, they all make it.9:58
  150. There isn't specialization.10:03
  151. He's not the musician.10:04
  152. When it comes to religion and magic, yes, he's the shaman and you believe.10:05
  153. But music is something they all do together.10:10
  154. You don't have to be a super musician to really enjoy playing music.10:12
  155. Where did you grow up?10:19
  156. Could you describe for us your early childhood?10:20
  157. My daddy was both jazz musician and CIA man.10:23
  158. This is serious.10:28
  159. And so I was born in Virginia, Alexandria, Virginia, which is a suburb of the CIA.10:30
  160. But my dad...10:37
  161. That's your dad.10:38
  162. And...but my daddy was away on business.10:41
  163. He was in Cairo, Egypt, installing a dictator.10:43
  164. And so that meant that I was shipped over there when I was two months old to Cairo and from there to Beirut.10:46
  165. And I didn't get back to America until I was 18.10:53
  166. So that whole time I'm in the weird zone of the world, an American.10:57
  167. I went to an American school.11:01
  168. I'm American.11:03
  169. Everything great was American.11:03
  170. So I've always been hyper aware of being American.11:05
  171. Most of you here as Americans, you know, you're not identified as an American every day, but I was.11:08
  172. I was the American kid.11:13
  173. And so that instills a strange kind of patriotism in a weird sort of way.11:14
  174. I'm sure.11:19
  175. Did you...at what point did you know your dad was in the CIA?11:20
  176. It was from the very beginning or...?11:24
  177. No, no.11:25
  178. In fact, my brother Miles came home from school one day.11:26
  179. And I said, Dad, are you a spy?11:30
  180. To which my father responded, who wants to know?11:35
  181. What did you guys think he did up to that point?11:41
  182. My mother used to...said years later.11:43
  183. My mother said, you could always tell the spies by the trivial nature of their conversation.11:45
  184. They wouldn't, you know, spies.11:51
  185. The one guy in the room who's not talking politics.11:52
  186. And one of my father's best friends was Kim Philby, a British double agent.11:55
  187. And one of my friends was Harry, his son Harry Philby, were kind of parallel families.12:00
  188. And one day their daddy disappeared.12:03
  189. Double agent meaning KGB as well as...?12:06
  190. One day their daddy disappeared.12:09
  191. True Blue English MI5, Blue Blood disappeared.12:10
  192. Two weeks later he showed up in Moscow.12:14
  193. He had been a double agent all along.12:16
  194. He was one of my father's best friends.12:17
  195. And they knew that there was a leak.12:19
  196. The British had a leak.12:21
  197. And it's got to be Philby.12:22
  198. It's got to be Kim Philby.12:24
  199. And then he was getting hot for it.12:25
  200. He disappeared.12:27
  201. So that's what Harry Philby had to deal with, with spy daddy.12:27
  202. At least my spy daddy wasn't a double agent, you know.12:31
  203. What drew you to music initially?12:36
  204. Was it just the family influence or something else?12:38
  205. It was something I could do.12:41
  206. And it was, you know, listening to it, everybody was beguiled by music.12:44
  207. We were all the same.12:49
  208. And my father was a jazz trumpet player.12:50
  209. I've still got his trumpet.12:54
  210. And he put all these musical instruments in the house for the sibling.12:57
  211. But one by one the sibling would pick them up, you know.13:00
  212. But I came along.13:04
  213. There they all were.13:06
  214. And they just came to me.13:07
  215. And I'd pick them up and I'd break them soon, you know.13:09
  216. But still.13:14
  217. And so my father spotted the unmistakable trait of a musician, which is the kid will not stop.13:15
  218. You know, if you have your daughter and you're sending her to violin lessons or piano lessons, then if you ever have to remind that girl, isn't it time for13:25
  219. your practice?13:33
  220. And forget it, forget it.13:35
  221. If I go find something else for this kid to do.13:36
  222. If, in fact, do you think you could stop playing for a minute?13:39
  223. Okay, now you've got a musician in the family.13:44
  224. You know, that's how you can tell.13:46
  225. And I just don't know what it's like not to have a desire to pick up that thing and hit it or make it make a sound somehow.13:47
  226. Do you remember your first gig?13:57
  227. I do at the American Embassy Beach Club.13:59
  228. And we played the kinks and animals, House of the Rising Sun, little James Brown, of course.14:01
  229. And that really a very important moment because I was the youngest of four.14:11
  230. And my older brother Ian was the cool kid.14:17
  231. And he was the cool kid in school.14:20
  232. He had a motorcycle.14:23
  233. And the band needed a drummer.14:26
  234. The drummer kid went back to the States, but his drums were still there.14:28
  235. And so Ian, obviously, we need Ian in the band because he's the coolest kid in school.14:32
  236. So Ian's the drummer, but he couldn't actually do it anyhow.14:35
  237. And he got me in the band.14:38
  238. So there I am.14:40
  239. I've joined the Black Knights.14:40
  240. I'm hearing, I'm at the Beach Club and I can hear two 15 -year -old girls talking.14:42
  241. Now for 12 -year -old, 15 -year -old girls are just the dream of my, you know, of the unclimable mountain.14:46
  242. And just so far beyond, oh no, no, don't even, don't even, never, you know.14:55
  243. And I could hear these two 15 -year -old girls talking about, wow, the Black Knights got a new drummer, grew or hep or whatever words they use in those15:00
  244. days, you know.15:07
  245. Who is he?15:08
  246. It's Ian Copeland's kid brother.15:09
  247. Ian has a brother.15:11
  248. And so they're talking about this mythical being who is now the drummer in the Black Knights, who's Ian's kid brother.15:14
  249. And they're talking, wow, is he cute?15:21
  250. And they're talking about this person and they're constructing in their mind, they're creating a person.15:23
  251. And I'm a little there, I'm like three years away from puberty, and I'm like, I was just a little, they're talking about me.15:29
  252. Very important moment in a musical career.15:38
  253. What influence or lasting impact did that upbringing have on your life or your literature?15:42
  254. What have you brought with you, if anything, from that?15:49
  255. Culturally, the music has a real important thing, which is that by some accident, cultural accident, it has the same drop kick as reggae.15:52
  256. The mechanics of the Arabic beat, the Baladi rhythms, that is actually mechanically, foundationally, the same building blocks of the reggae beat, which is the emphasis on three of the16:07
  257. bar and the absence of one, three, four, three, four, two, three, four, nothing to three.16:23
  258. And growing up with that, kind of almost, you know, part of my genes, you know, genetic structure musically surrounded by that rhythm.16:31
  259. And then the clash had the brilliant idea of attempting to actually play reggae, and they did a track called Police and Thieves.16:41
  260. And ironically, the police came along and thieved that idea.16:50
  261. But we had a secret weapon, which was the Baladi rhythms of the Lebanese mountains.16:58
  262. When did Curved Air enter the picture?17:05
  263. Well, Curved Air was the band that led me away from finishing my college education.17:08
  264. I got myself in as a tour manager.17:14
  265. And so I was the tour manager of Curved Air, cut to a few years later, and I'm married to the singer and I'm in the band.17:16
  266. I think that's a Game of Thrones move.17:25
  267. Well, it was a wonderful circumstance.17:28
  268. You know, we have three fine sons together, and it's a wonderful thing.17:30
  269. I want to pull up a few letters that you sent to Music Magazines and using different handwriting styles, spellings and stationery.17:34
  270. So we're going to pull up.17:44
  271. These are letters that he sent to Music Magazines while being the drummer of Curved Air.17:47
  272. Keep in mind, so the first one starts, Dear Sirs.17:51
  273. Dear Sirs, I recently had the exquisite joy of experiencing a Curved Air concert and was most impressed by the exceptional talent of their new drummer.17:54
  274. That's kind of highbrow.18:02
  275. Yeah, highbrow.18:04
  276. Obviously, music aficionado.18:05
  277. Not to be thought the same person.18:07
  278. Dear Sirs, Curved Air are brilliant with a why.18:08
  279. What's the drummer's name?18:13
  280. Next, to whom it may concern, wow.18:18
  281. Me and some mates went to see Curved Air at the incredible, especially the new drummer.18:21
  282. See these boots?18:33
  283. You're pulling up by your own goddamn bootstraps.18:35
  284. I'd mail these letters in.18:39
  285. We'd play Scunthorpe.18:41
  286. What is Scunthorpe?18:42
  287. You don't want to know.18:43
  288. As we're leaving Scunthorpe, I'd hit the mailbox.18:45
  289. Hey guys, I just got to take a piss for a second.18:49
  290. I'd hit the mailbox.18:51
  291. Different handwriting, different stationery, different literal, different styles.18:53
  292. And that was the first time I got my name in print.19:00
  293. Thank you very much.19:03
  294. Why wait for attention when you can grab it?19:07
  295. I learned that all by the way.19:11
  296. I learned that from my father.19:12
  297. How did you first meet Sting?19:14
  298. It was a stormy night.19:17
  299. We had a night off in Newcastle and the local journalist, Phil Sutcliffe, took me to see the local hero band playing at the local college.19:22
  300. The first thing you noticed was a golden ray of sunshine lighting upon the brow of the golden wand.19:30
  301. His name was Fred.19:42
  302. Just kidding, that was Sting.19:44
  303. And no, he could play bass and sing.19:46
  304. And that was what impressed me about it.19:49
  305. I already had the idea of the police.19:50
  306. I had the name, the logo, I had a manifesto even.19:53
  307. This idea of I just didn't have any guys in the band except me.19:59
  308. So I saw this guy and I wanted it to be a three piece.20:02
  309. So a few months later, I was actually saying, well let me actually get this thing.20:05
  310. I want to get that bass player up in Newcastle.20:09
  311. So I called up the journalist and asked him, Phil Sutcliffe, to give me the telephone number.20:11
  312. You know that bass player you introduced me to?20:15
  313. Sting.20:17
  314. And he said, oh no, I'm not giving you this number.20:19
  315. I know what you're doing down there in London.20:21
  316. You're into this punk thing, aren't you?20:22
  317. And you want to ruin our Newcastle band.20:24
  318. And I'm not giving you the number.20:27
  319. You know, he hangs up my hang up and I'm like, wait, wait a minute.20:28
  320. So I call him back and, hello, it's his girlfriend.20:32
  321. Phil's not here.20:37
  322. And well, I just wanted to get a number of that bass player.20:38
  323. Okay, let me look at his phone book and I'll get it for you.20:41
  324. So she goes...20:44
  325. So she goes off and gets the number, brings it back, gives me the number.20:50
  326. And I thought, oh shit, now I need a guitarist.20:55
  327. Sting and I, we actually earned our living doing sessions as a rhythm section.20:57
  328. And we show up at the studio to do a session.21:01
  329. And a guitarist walks in who is like way above our thing.21:04
  330. This is a fancy session, triple scale guitarist.21:08
  331. Absolutely the top session guy in London, the name of Andy Summers.21:10
  332. And a few weeks later, I ran into Andy in London.21:15
  333. We were both getting off the underground together and hey, it's you, hey, it's you, hey.21:18
  334. He says, Stuart, let's have a coffee.21:24
  335. And he pulls me aside.21:27
  336. Stuart, you and that bass player, you've got something.21:28
  337. But you need me in the band and I accept.21:32
  338. Now, I tell this story with love and admiration in my heart for Andy Summers.21:42
  339. He is a guy who is that.21:48
  340. And he gets uncomfortable when I tell that story, but it so encapsulates the power of Andy Summers.21:52
  341. Up until that point, I supplied the songs.21:58
  342. There are crap songs, three minute fake punk songs.22:00
  343. Da, da, da, da, I hate people.22:02
  344. They hate me.22:05
  345. You know, punk stuff, you know.22:05
  346. And the rules of punk were actually very strict.22:09
  347. Thou shalt not write a song over three minutes.22:11
  348. Thou shalt not write a song about love.22:13
  349. Thou shalt only write about being pissed off, you know.22:15
  350. And the dress code was very strict.22:18
  351. Nobel bottoms, short hair.22:21
  352. The hairdo was critical.22:23
  353. The rules of punk were extremely strict.22:25
  354. The rebels had a lot of rules.22:28
  355. Exactly.22:29
  356. Funny thing, that, isn't it?22:31
  357. Yeah.22:32
  358. But now, Sting had an actual musician to work with.22:34
  359. And suddenly, you know, he comes up with a song.22:39
  360. I think it was born in the 50s, which actually had some chord inversions and stuff.22:41
  361. As soon as I heard, wow, that's great.22:45
  362. Let's do that.22:47
  363. And one by one, these songs started coming out, which were pretty wouldn't have been possible until Sting and Andy.22:48
  364. You know, Andy could play the stuff that he could write.22:56
  365. He could write a hit -pop song.23:02
  366. He had never attempted to.23:03
  367. He had never really seen himself in that role.23:04
  368. But the punk world of three -minute songs, the discipline, all that discipline of all those rules, something clicked.23:07
  369. And he suddenly, out of nowhere, started to write these great songs.23:15
  370. At that point in time, in your heads, or maybe just in your head, what did success for that band look like?23:19
  371. What was three years later incremental?23:25
  372. Some of the milestones were not the big ones, but they felt like the big ones.23:28
  373. One milestone was the Marquis Club in London, where everybody played there.23:31
  374. The Who played there.23:35
  375. It was the club.23:36
  376. It was like the whiskey in London.23:38
  377. It was just the history of that place.23:40
  378. And there was a hierarchy.23:42
  379. The bottom of the hierarchy is you're supporting on a weekend because they don't have, you know, anybody can, you know, the weekend they're going to do business anyway.23:45
  380. And then the next is supporting on the weekday because that's the toughest thing.23:53
  381. You've got to have a little bit of a draw.23:56
  382. Then when you headline on a Thursday, you are king of the world.23:57
  383. We're headlining the Marquis on Thursday.24:03
  384. And so, you know, headlining the Marquis on a Thursday was a big deal.24:08
  385. And we felt like we, yeah, we're getting somewhere.24:12
  386. Yeah, baby.24:16
  387. But we still weren't getting anywhere.24:17
  388. We were still starving.24:20
  389. And we were still written off by the press.24:21
  390. And somebody had the bright, my brother Miles this time had the bright idea, let's go to America.24:23
  391. So we did.24:30
  392. And punk had failed here because the Sex Pistols came over and sucked.24:31
  393. They bombed.24:36
  394. And the word punk just did not resonate in America in the same way that it did in England.24:37
  395. It had wrong associations.24:41
  396. It just didn't catch for it.24:43
  397. So they erased the American record.24:45
  398. I mean, they erased all the punkorama, the, you know, the album, which had all these pictures of us in leather jackets and looking hostile and everything.24:46
  399. Got rid of all that.24:54
  400. And airbrushed, the American edition of our first album is airbrushed so that we look 12.24:55
  401. And we came to America and club by club, city by city, we worked our way, every city was fighting the battle all over again.25:03
  402. But we did.25:13
  403. And finally, I guess, so along the way there were these milestones.25:14
  404. While we were on tour in America, we heard that we had a hit in England, you know, that got on the BBC.25:19
  405. And so, you know, I guess a big one was Shea Stadium because that's for English band, even though I'm American, that was an English band, playing Shea Stadium is25:26
  406. the Beatles.25:36
  407. That means you're a Beatles.25:37
  408. That means you've conquered America.25:39
  409. That's official now.25:40
  410. You've conquered America.25:41
  411. When you play Shea Stadium, and not only for yourselves, but for the British press corps, the British England is conquering America when an English band plays Shea Stadium.25:42
  412. And so it's like a national thing.25:54
  413. And the whole, the whole England gets excited about it.25:57
  414. So I guess that would have been a pretty cool milestone too.25:59
  415. Were you nervous before that gig?26:02
  416. I'm, I guess you would call it nerves.26:05
  417. Is there anything you did?26:07
  418. Do you have a pregame ritual or anything like that?26:08
  419. Oh, artists of all kinds have many pregame rituals.26:10
  420. And they evolve and they emerge.26:16
  421. One day you have a donut and you have a really great kid.26:18
  422. That's it, I gotta have a donut.26:20
  423. You know, and they accrete.26:22
  424. They build up after a while.26:24
  425. And then one day you go and there's no donut, but you go and you play a great show anyway.26:25
  426. Oh, maybe it's not the donut.26:30
  427. You know, and so you pick up and you lose.26:32
  428. Singers particularly, because, you know, drummer, you break something, you play through it.26:35
  429. The singer, your voice goes and it goes quite easily.26:39
  430. It's quite a delicate instrument and when it goes you are so screwed.26:43
  431. And so singers particularly have rituals of the steam, the humidity in the room, the, there's this, the humidifier you breathe into and the throat coat and the La La26:48
  432. La La La La La La La La La La La!27:00
  433. mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu mu kya kya kya kya kya kya you know, weird shit, all I gotta go27:02
  434. is a ratatata ratatata and so the singers have a lot of ritual so did you have, what was your magic donut?27:09
  435. did you have any?27:16
  436. my magic donut well for years I didn't have any magic donut and then I realized that wow you can actually go on feeling the way you do on the27:16
  437. third song when you're warmed up and you kill you know the first few songs just aren't as good unless you warm up my god what a difference and I27:25
  438. saw I was actually with Stanley Clark with some jazz musicians and the other jazz musicians, one of the drummers famous guy was doing his rudiments and I'm thinking that's27:35
  439. someone, I wouldn't be caught dead you know publicly doing rudiments shit you know but there was this jazz cat doing it then he went out and his first song27:49
  440. was just like he'd been playing all night and so I without anybody noticing started to do my rudiments and then I noticed actually that stretching is even better than27:58
  441. rudiments all these muscles in here all these tiny little muscles the reason they play better three songs in this because they're warmed up, blood circulating and it's just physics,28:08
  442. biology and physics and so I have rituals of stretching and so on and each finger gets love and attention because this finger here actually goes up through to there28:16
  443. and I can feel that one, thank you and you know so all the stretching rituals that's my particular poison have there been particular dark periods or difficult periods going28:27
  444. up to the end of the police era?28:42
  445. well the police itself was hell just kidding no I'm not kidding no it was both it was like a Prada suit made out of barbed wire it was incredible28:45
  446. to have that effect on audiences to get on stage and do what we did was darned exciting but it became more and more difficult for us to resolve our28:59
  447. creative differences and they come from an honest place you know in the early days songs would come into the band with just some chords and we'd say oh cool,29:12
  448. let's play that and mess around with it and the writer of said song would be oh really you like my song?29:21
  449. you want to play it?29:27
  450. oh wow guys cool, can I make tea?29:28
  451. you know after you've written a few hits that humility turns into something else it turns into confidence so the vision of where to take the band began to not29:31
  452. be quite so symmetrical and you know I saw the band like this Stingo saw it like that and Andy just saw, great, they're fighting again and he would just29:43
  453. pull up a dickcher and throw bombs you know and if you are a true creative musician you don't show up to the studio at that time he wasn't, none29:55
  454. of us were showing up with a couple ideas and then the band would develop it we would all show up, we all had home recording studios now and we30:04
  455. would show up with platinum demos having thought through every aspect of the song having thought through not just what I'm going to do but what he's going to do,30:13
  456. he's going to, here's the guitar part and no, no, no, no, no, I've already written the guitar part so play what I already wrote since I wrote the song,30:21
  457. that's the guitar part, that I wrote so play that and that, you know, we all felt that way about because music's really important to us it's really important that30:29
  458. this song, I have conceived this song and it should be expressed like that what do you mean you've got another idea that isn't this go away with it but30:39
  459. that caused conflict, it was never an ego clash when Sting would get the attention and his face on the cover that's a good day because, you know, we, the30:49
  460. band, he's our guy, he's our face and you know, I love that but the music part was, it just got to be such a struggle of, you know, I31:00
  461. want to express something in this band but I can't because the door is locked because he wrote the song and he's decided how it's going to be by the31:09
  462. way, the decisions that he had made also including the drum part were pretty good decisions actually the guy really does know music and he really does, he has impeccable31:16
  463. producing chops that's where the conflict came from even as I understood that, you know, he turns around and he says, you know, that snare drum, you just turn it,31:29
  464. you use the rims fuck off!31:40
  465. and it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter this is an important point, it doesn't matter that actually he was right about that snare drum thing that's actually kind of a31:44
  466. cool idea, that fucking asshole yeah, yeah but when you're young, all this wisdom, by the way, came decades later you know, he's deep and quiet I am noisy and31:58
  467. shallow we clash because of our history, we get along really well and with mutual admiration, we really have a deep bond that is just not breakable after rehearsal, we32:15
  468. have dinner together, we laugh and we hang out and it's fine but man, the music thing, and this is the reason I'm going on because it's so weird, it32:29
  469. makes no sense that we created such important music that so many people kind of liked and yet, it came from forcing together these elements that are disparate so the32:38
  470. question I'd love to ask is when you have a bad day or a down day how does that manifest itself?32:52
  471. because you're a passionate guy, is it anger, is it depression, anxiety, what is the cocktail?33:01
  472. well, anger is dope anger is dope it is, it feels good oh, dope yeah, okay, sorry it feels good yeah few things are more invigorating than a nice swelling33:08
  473. of righteous anger you know, sometimes I wake up in the morning, I'm in the shower when the blood, the brain chemistry is just bad and I'm looking for someone33:22
  474. to pick a fight with somebody on TV, a politician, my poor wife who's about to come into the room you know, and it's brain chemistry and just, you know,33:35
  475. I'll get into some fantasy of somebody said this and then I said that and then they said this and then I said that you know, and the great part33:46
  476. of these anger fantasies is that you win every argument you just totally crush and then I have breakfast, I get down to work, I turn on my computer and33:57
  477. I'm still kind of prrrrr but then I get into work and I find that on the day, and this isn't every morning, by the way just some mornings you34:06
  478. wake up, you know and I find that after a morning like that that I have a very serene day go figure Steve sort of protted the monkey mind with34:13
  479. a little barb yeah, what is that?34:25
  480. it's gotten all of its, I'm crushing that The real thing is the anger, the physical sensation of anger, is very pleasant.34:27
  481. Especially when there's nothing to be angry about.34:34
  482. Especially when the anger derives from an imaginary conversation that never took place.34:38
  483. That is a rarefied, purified, distilled anger that just is a warm glow.34:44
  484. Not everybody else has that anger.34:54
  485. And after breakfast they're like, ah, so did you learn to turn it down or turn it off?34:56
  486. Or was it just it ends out of the shower and you're like Mary Poppins off to the nose?35:04
  487. It goes away, it goes away.35:08
  488. Thank God.35:09
  489. You know, two things that cause bad decisions are anger and sex.35:10
  490. You know, how many people have made just stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid?35:14
  491. You know, that seemed like a really great idea when I was really mad or, you know, was at the disco or whatever, you know, when I've been listening to35:18
  492. that music and thrusting my pudenda.35:27
  493. One thing leads to another, you know.35:30
  494. That music, yeah, music causes bad decisions.35:33
  495. And anger's the same, you know, it seemed like a really good idea to tell them what I thought.35:37
  496. It wasn't a good idea.35:41
  497. And best have those, you know, those moments in the shower.35:43
  498. What are some of the decisions that have formed who you are today?35:47
  499. If you look back at some of the most important decisions.35:52
  500. Well, some of the things good that happened were because that was my mission, but other incredibly good things happened that were not on my radar.35:56
  501. I didn't expect Francis Coppola to call up and offer me a 20 -year career, basically it ended up in film composing.36:06
  502. You know, that wasn't my plan at all, but I found myself in that world and just like thrived in it.36:17
  503. And I didn't make that decision.36:23
  504. Francis did, you know, gave me my first shot and it turned into something.36:26
  505. So some things you strive for and you reach out for and you go for, but some things just kind of come.36:30
  506. And, you know, I would say as a piece of advice, just stick to the answer, yes.36:36
  507. You know, orchestra in Iceland, in Norway.36:42
  508. You want to come over and play, we have an Iceland duet.36:47
  509. Yes, I go over there.36:52
  510. I have the best time in Stavanger.36:55
  511. I hadn't heard of it either.36:59
  512. But this orchestra was fantastic.37:01
  513. I discovered anchovies, you know, I mean sardines, you know, and cured in olive oil.37:04
  514. And I have one can of day now.37:10
  515. I mean, so much good stuff derived from just saying yes.37:13
  516. I didn't know these guys.37:16
  517. I don't know what's going to happen.37:16
  518. But I've never been to Norway.37:17
  519. You know, yes, good things can come from yes.37:20
  520. So Francis Ford Coppola, let's talk about this.37:23
  521. This was correct me from 1983.37:25
  522. I'll take your word for it.37:27
  523. Or so, Rumblefish.37:29
  524. Where were you, what did you think you would be doing, say, a year hence, if Rumblefish had not intervened?37:31
  525. Well, I would have gone mad.37:39
  526. I recorded Rumblefish right after, I think it was the last or the second to last police.37:44
  527. It came straight from Montserrat to the hell of the police experience.37:50
  528. You know, to go into a studio with Francis, he's not a musician.37:55
  529. He's the boss.37:58
  530. And I serving his artistic vision.37:59
  531. But when he leaves the room, all the music is mine.38:01
  532. And all the music and no debating just like follow the instincts and create something that's beautiful without any debate.38:04
  533. Oh, gosh, that was fun.38:13
  534. So there are many people out there who score films and so on.38:16
  535. Why didn't he go to one of the usual suspects?38:21
  536. Why did he pick you?38:23
  537. Good question.38:25
  538. He wanted to do something out of the ordinary.38:26
  539. And in fact, he assembled a bunch of musicians in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where they were rehearsing the movie.38:28
  540. And there were various musicians there.38:34
  541. And something that I had learned at most a drummer, where the deal is you got to get the other guy off the stool so you can take his job.38:36
  542. And in punk rock, which is, ah, you know, and I pretty much just nuked all the competition.38:43
  543. There were no survivors but me.38:51
  544. How did you nuked them?38:53
  545. Was this like a false flag?38:55
  546. Like we're going to have a...38:56
  547. Well, I got into a studio.38:58
  548. I got into a studio and while the others would talk about what they're going to do, I got into a studio and recorded some stuff.38:59
  549. And I guess that's what it was.39:09
  550. You just beat them to the punch.39:12
  551. You know, like with band leadership or any kind of leadership, it's not about being given some chevrons.39:12
  552. It's about having the best idea first.39:19
  553. That's a leader.39:21
  554. When I got an idea, let's do it like this.39:22
  555. And you're the first with the idea which the best people follow because they're relieved that somebody had a fix for the situation.39:25
  556. And so I just had the best idea first in the opinion of the boss man.39:32
  557. When you think of the word or hear the word successful, who's the first person or thing that comes to mind?39:37
  558. It can be a tricky term.39:43
  559. I mean a lot of people chase this specter.39:44
  560. And they end up in a place that is worse than where they started in some cases.39:47
  561. Or they've sacrificed everything along the way.39:51
  562. What is success to you?39:53
  563. And how has it changed over time?39:54
  564. I think the only measure is happiness.39:57
  565. You can achieve what you thought was...40:00
  566. And in my case, happiness comes from my family, my kids.40:07
  567. I've got Grammys.40:10
  568. You get a Grammy.40:12
  569. You look at it for the first couple of days it fills you.40:13
  570. And then it goes to the shelf.40:17
  571. A week later you walk by and go...40:19
  572. And then a month later you walk by and...40:22
  573. Oh yeah.40:25
  574. And then a year later you don't even see it.40:27
  575. It doesn't mean anything.40:29
  576. And so all those things that you think are success, they lose their thing.40:31
  577. The kids, the family, your relationships, your life are so...40:36
  578. So I'm going to go to some audience questions.40:44
  579. And we have the number of them.40:47
  580. Do you have any advice for someone who wants to pursue film scoring coming from a rock and roll musical background?40:48
  581. It's a very tough world to get into because there are so many who want to be there.40:54
  582. And the dreams that take you to rock and roll are very different from the dreams of a film composer.40:59
  583. And you're developing, you're working on the director's artistic vision, which means that you are there to serve his emotional needs.41:05
  584. And it's a very different mindset.41:14
  585. And many rock and rollers get into the film composing and the director says, I'm just not feeling it.41:16
  586. I want it happy, sad, and this is sad, happy.41:20
  587. And I don't like it.41:24
  588. Do something else.41:26
  589. You know, the hardened, whizzed, flinty -eyed film composer says, throw that away, I got more.41:27
  590. And you do, by the way.41:36
  591. You do have more.41:37
  592. You can throw out your children and come up with another idea.41:38
  593. And in fact, after a few years of film composing, you get pretty confident about that.41:42
  594. And you can shed, you don't like that, it's gone.41:47
  595. You'll never hear it again.41:49
  596. I'll come up with something else.41:50
  597. And you can.41:51
  598. And that's really surprising how much stuff is in your brain that you can pull out when you need to.41:52
  599. Let me digress for a second here.41:59
  600. I've done lots of episodic TV where the show comes in Tuesday.42:01
  601. I got a ship at Friday, next Tuesday.42:06
  602. Another show, I got it.42:08
  603. It may not be my finest hour, but I got to put something on tape and it's going out of the door.42:09
  604. And you just get into this grind and you would think you run out of ideas that you're going to get stale.42:13
  605. Oh my God, I'm used to it.42:19
  606. The opposite happens.42:21
  607. You got to deal with that.42:25
  608. And I'm here to tell you you can.42:26
  609. But that's a tough threshold to cross.42:29
  610. Next one is, the music industry has changed so much since when you started.42:32
  611. What advice besides the never ending hustle would you give a budding musician today?42:36
  612. I guess the only advice that I can give you would be creatively how to find your own sound and urge you above all, artistically, to get a unique sound,42:41
  613. look for different sources of inspiration.42:53
  614. Somehow set yourself apart from other artists by just different sources.42:56
  615. Different stuff in, different stuff out is my philosophy.43:01
  616. But how you crack the business, you probably know more about that than I do.43:04
  617. Because you've been in this business for the last 10 minutes, not the decades before that.43:10
  618. And I think also I don't have the music experience, but it seems like the barrier to produce music is lower.43:17
  619. You have the software.43:23
  620. Yes, that's good news.43:23
  621. But the barrier to attention is higher because you're going to have more competition due to the aforementioned low barrier to production.43:24
  622. So a few things that have helped at least in the startup world quite a lot where you have a very similar issue or now you have rental, rentable infrastructure43:33
  623. that before would have cost $500 ,000.43:40
  624. I would recommend checking out 1000 True Fans.43:43
  625. It's an essay by a guy named Kevin Kelly.43:46
  626. Which I think is very good.43:48
  627. There's a revised version coming out very soon.43:49
  628. And also the law of category.43:51
  629. It's a chapter in a book called The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, but it talks about exactly what you just mentioned, which is being a clear and distinct category43:55
  630. compared to whatever you are competing against and sort of creating a blue ocean in that respect.44:05
  631. So those two have been very helpful, at least in the startup world, which I think at this point in time a lot of musicians breaking through that attention barrier44:09
  632. would be well served to start thinking of at least the band, not necessarily the music, as their own startup in a sense.44:18
  633. Next question.44:26
  634. I just want to hear one more thing about that artistic identity.44:26
  635. Don't be fearful if your music doesn't sound like everything else on the radio.44:29
  636. And don't be complacent if it does.44:35
  637. This sounds just like Beyonce.44:40
  638. That's when you got to be worried.44:44
  639. Yeah, hard to out -Beyonce Beyonce.44:48
  640. The next question is from Facebook.44:52
  641. This is from Ong Jab.44:55
  642. What interests you musically now?44:58
  643. Well, input these days is my own radio station I listen to.45:03
  644. It's on iTunes.45:07
  645. It's called Shirley and Spinoza.45:09
  646. I have nothing to do with it, but I can't shout its name loudly enough.45:11
  647. It is the best radio station ever.45:14
  648. It is so eclectic.45:16
  649. One minute they'll be playing Beach Boys.45:19
  650. The next minute, you know, Armenian Chance.45:22
  651. What's the name of it again?45:26
  652. Shirley, S -H -I -R -L -E -Y, and Spinoza.45:28
  653. It's just the name right there.45:33
  654. It's the mix and match.45:34
  655. And sometimes I'm listening to it as I'm rodeeing in the studio.45:36
  656. Is that even music?45:39
  657. It's like white noise.45:40
  658. And then they've got a weird 50s cigarette commercial playing over it.45:42
  659. And then it goes to country and western, some, you know, Okie from Muskogee.45:46
  660. It's like everything.45:50
  661. That is the best.45:52
  662. That's the input right there.45:54
  663. And another source is driving my 16 -year -old to school.45:55
  664. I have been forced to admit that Kanye is a genius.45:59
  665. Now, you know, my cultural environment has only exposed me to Kanye grabbing someone else's Grammy.46:08
  666. You know, that's all I know about him.46:16
  667. Until I start hearing his music.46:19
  668. And him and the Black Eyed Peas and, you know, Ocean and Kamar, Kendrick Lamar, Lamar Kendrick.46:21
  669. All of my friends who don't have a 16 -year -old daughter, you know, I actually haven't listened to this stuff.46:34
  670. I was like, oh, that's not music.46:39
  671. Where is it?46:41
  672. There's no backbeat.46:41
  673. They don't even have guitars.46:43
  674. They sound like my dad, you know, and I listen to stuff and they have just thrown away all the building blocks that I grew up with.46:45
  675. But they push the boundaries of the, it sounds like the soundtrack to a really strange movie.46:53
  676. And, you know, and these are hits.46:59
  677. And they finally, since Chuck Berry and Bill Haley invented the guitar, bass and drums combo, you know, and my father, that was the enemy.47:01
  678. That's not music.47:13
  679. And there was that divide.47:15
  680. My dad listened to trumpets and saxophones.47:16
  681. I listened to long hair music with, and that same music hasn't changed through all the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s punk.47:18
  682. It's still E, A and D chords with a backbeat.47:28
  683. Whatever it is, it's a backbeat, whether it's funk or rock or whatever, it's the same building blocks until Kendrick.47:35
  684. And these guys just throw out all those ingredients and start again.47:43
  685. And driving off my daughter to school in the morning hearing this stuff.47:47
  686. That's the first time I am hearing music.47:51
  687. I wouldn't know how to make that.47:55
  688. The, alright, let's go with this one.47:56
  689. And I'll explain what I mean.47:59
  690. Do you have a favorite failure?47:59
  691. And what I mean by that is a failure that in retrospect set you up for a later success.48:01
  692. Great.48:06
  693. I'm stumped to think of a particular one, but this has been a motif that I keep coming back to, that a disappointment, something goes bad, something's wrong, something's broken,48:08
  694. creates an opportunity.48:18
  695. And I screwed this up.48:20
  696. And because I screwed this up, I'm in this position here.48:23
  697. And since I'm in this position, this opportunity arises.48:27
  698. And that is a recurring theme, and I wish I could think of a great example for you.48:30
  699. But it just is that sometimes a door that closes is a window that's opening.48:34
  700. A glass that breaks is a something.48:40
  701. And...48:46
  702. Yeah.48:47
  703. Let me interrupt you.48:47
  704. That's pretty much the last feeling about America right now.48:49
  705. If you had a gigantic billboard, you could put anything on it, and you had a few words, short message, you just wanted to get out to the world.48:52
  706. It's another one of those questions.49:00
  707. What would you put on it?49:02
  708. Don't worry, be happy.49:08
  709. And that's a total cop out, riding home this afternoon, I'm not going to come up with it.49:11
  710. Well, let's put it in different ways.49:16
  711. We have a lot of people in the audience here.49:18
  712. We have a lot of people watching who are maybe inspired to take the next step in a new chapter.49:20
  713. They're probably nervous.49:28
  714. They might have some misgivings.49:29
  715. They might be leaving something behind.49:30
  716. Who knows?49:31
  717. But for someone who is striking out, attempting something new, what would your parting thoughts, advice, recommendation be?49:32
  718. I would say that obsess over every mining detail of what success looks like.49:41
  719. And imagine, you know, I believe that a daydream is a very useful exercise.49:49
  720. And when I was a kid, I daydream, and if it's a really good daydream, then you fill in the gaps.49:53
  721. If you keep going back to what you really, really want, you go back to that daydream.49:59
  722. And every time you go back to it, you fill in the things.50:03
  723. And eventually that daydream starts to flesh out into an actual game plan.50:05
  724. And so that, you know, it's good to daydream.50:10
  725. And so thinking, thinking, thinking, overthinking, don't be scared to overthink.50:14
  726. But when it comes to throw the switch, just do it, baby, and don't be thinking anymore.50:18
  727. And don't let any of the thinking slow you down.50:22
  728. Just be in a position where you have thought of everything, but don't let any of that slow you down.50:25
  729. Just throw the switch, leap off the cliff.50:30
  730. Yeah, baby, let's go.50:33
  731. And that's how you do it.50:35
  732. Ladies and gentlemen, Stuart Cobb, ladies.50:37
  733. Thank you.50:45
  734. Thank you, folks.50:54
  735. Thank you.51:29
  736. Thank you.51:56

English speaking practice with a fast American podcast introduction

This clip opens The Tim Ferriss Show's episode with drummer Stewart Copeland. It is a conversation: a scripted host monologue followed by a live studio introduction, spoken in an American accent at 195 words per minute, faster than most of the catalogue. The transcript sits at B2, so the vocabulary is manageable even where the pace pushes you.

Ferriss opens with his own bio, then explains the show's format, then brings Copeland out to applause. The register shifts partway through, from a polished radio read into looser, spontaneous talk once the guest is actually on stage. That shift is the reason to work this clip for english speaking practice rather than a single flat monologue: you get two different rhythms in one recording.

Shadow this line: the language in Stewart Copeland's Fearless interview

A few lines are worth slowing down for before you shadow this line by line.

  • "I'm Tim Ferriss, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now TV host." Four job titles in a row, each one a short breath group. Practising the list intonation, a small rise on each item and a fall on the last, is good drilling for speaking practice built on real sentence stress rather than reading flat.
  • "The goal isn't to be fearless." against "The goal is to learn to fear less." Near identical wording, opposite meaning, and the whole joke rides on the stress landing on "less" the second time. Say both back to back and you will hear how English leans on stress, not word order, to carry the point.
  • "It's so nice to see you again." said twice in a row, once by each speaker. Match the exact rhythm of the repeat rather than smoothing it into your own phrasing.
  • "It's the dumb shit." repeated later in the same exchange. Casual register, contracted "it's", heavy stress on "dumb". Worth noticing because it sits right next to a formal introduction, which is the kind of register jump native speech makes constantly and scripted textbook audio never does.
  • The recording also carries "gotta" twice further into the interview, a reduction worth listening for once you move past the opening lines shown here.

How to work through this opening to speak English fluently

Work the introduction before the interview. The monologue is denser and more evenly paced, so it is the better place to build the habit before the conversation gets loose.

  • Start on line 1, "I'm Tim Ferriss, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now TV host." Loop it until the four titles come out as one breath group, not four separate words.
  • Move to lines 5 and 6, the fearless and fear less pair. Record yourself saying both and check the stress actually moves.
  • Jump to lines 19 and 20, the repeated greeting. Say it twice in a row exactly as written, matching the second repeat to the first rather than varying it.
  • Take lines 32 and 34, "It's the dumb shit." Practise the contraction and the drop into casual register right after the formal introduction that came before it.
  • Once those hold, keep going into the interview itself and listen for the "gotta" reductions as Copeland's answers get more relaxed. That is where american accent training pays off most, once the script stops sounding like a script.
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