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Latihan shadowing: How To Talk To Users - Startup School

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  1. Good morning everyone.0:08
  2. My name is Gustav and I work here at Y Combinator as a group partner.0:10
  3. I've been here since 2017.0:14
  4. Before YC I was a product leader at Airbnb and actually a YC founder back in 2007.0:16
  5. Today I'm going to talk about how to talk to users and your future customers.0:21
  6. Here's what I plan to cover today.0:26
  7. Why the best founders talk to the users throughout the lifetime of the company.0:28
  8. Two, how to find your users and how to talk to them.0:32
  9. Three, what questions to ask them and what not to ask them.0:35
  10. And four, how to turn your conclusions into an MVP.0:38
  11. Most people in the world have the idea on how new startups are formed completely wrong.0:41
  12. They think ideas of new products is something the founders who come up with on a lazy Sunday or a late night coding session.0:45
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  1. You probably know it doesn't work this way.0:51
  2. This scene as you can see here is a scene from the social network movie.0:53
  3. It's a great movie but they got a lot of things wrong on how Facebook actually got started.0:57
  4. This is Brian Chesky.1:02
  5. Brian is the co -founder and CEO of Airbnb.1:03
  6. On the left side of the photo is Amol.1:05
  7. Amol was the very first guest on Airbnb.1:08
  8. They actually spent a weekend together in San Francisco when Airbnb kind of watched.1:10
  9. You notice the difference between this photo and the previous photo?1:14
  10. Well this photo actually is a real photo.1:17
  11. It includes a two -way conversation with a real customer.1:19
  12. Great founders talk to future customers before they even have a product.1:22
  13. In fact, the very best founders in the world learn directly from their users throughout the life of their company.1:26
  14. But that's a thing again.1:33
  15. If you have correctly identified who your users are, you should learn from them throughout the lifetime of your company.1:34
  16. Why, you might ask, users and customers will keep you honest.1:40
  17. They are the only stakeholders actually paying you if anyone will tell you the truth, it will be them.1:44
  18. So my talk today is about how to do this well.1:51
  19. So let's talk about another Airbnb story.1:53
  20. In 2010, and I remember this myself, Brian Chesky, the CEO of Airbnb, he decided to launch an experiment.1:56
  21. He was going to give up his apartment and live in 50 different Airbnbs over the next couple of months.2:03
  22. You might ask yourself, why would anyone do that?2:08
  23. So much hassle.2:11
  24. Most people who read the articles about this experiment because he did announce it, they missed the point.2:12
  25. I personally remember this being kind of crazy.2:17
  26. By doing this, Brian will literally get a chance to talk to every one of these 50 hosts each single day on his trip and what an incredible source of2:20
  27. honest feedback on your product.2:27
  28. Without the Airbnb hosts, Airbnb would not exist today.2:28
  29. What Brian, Joe and Nate did so early is deeply understand the motivations and the feedback from their hosts.2:32
  30. Still today, Brian and Joe gets calls from hosts on their personal cell phone numbers.2:38
  31. I remember them telling me that on their first day of work at Airbnb, why do they do that?2:44
  32. Well, it's the number that they put on the website and share with all of their hosts early on.2:49
  33. They weren't hiding behind anonymous email.2:54
  34. They wanted to hear from the customers.2:56
  35. At the time, this seemed almost radical.2:58
  36. Most founders would spend their time in front of the computers trying to find scalable growth channels like Google ads.3:00
  37. Unfortunately, most founders still don't build personal connections with their users today.3:06
  38. They hide behind info at emails or do not reply emails.3:11
  39. You don't believe me?3:16
  40. You should just do a search in your email for do not reply at and see how many people don't want to talk to their customers.3:17
  41. So let's start by trying to figure out who I should talk to.3:23
  42. It's always easy to interview people that you know or people who are on your network.3:27
  43. They're simply the most likely to respond, but perhaps can be less honest in their answers to not offend you.3:32
  44. Don't be afraid of reaching out to them and don't be afraid of rejection.3:39
  45. The second group here is coworkers or former coworkers.3:44
  46. They can be a really great source.3:46
  47. They might know the topic really well.3:47
  48. And if you're building software for startups, you can easily let and easily navigate yourself to someone who's a potential user.3:50
  49. It's also very common that the early users you speak to are outside of your personal servers or your coworkers circles.3:56
  50. When asking why see founders, how they found their early users, some of the most common answers were LinkedIn, red forms, slack or discord communities, and sometimes in person events.4:02
  51. So to illustrate this process a little better, I'm going to start a new mock startup.4:13
  52. This is not a real company.4:18
  53. I'm just making it up, but I'm going to go through the process as I would have if this was a real company.4:19
  54. And first, I want to understand if the problem is real.4:24
  55. My hypothesis that I have here or kind of like the idea space that we sometimes call it NYC is that companies want to reduce their carbon emissions, but for4:27
  56. whatever reasons, don't do that.4:35
  57. So my plan is very simple.4:37
  58. I want to first interview some potential customers to learn about the problems and motivations around carbon emissions and three, try to understand what an MVP will look like MVP4:38
  59. is a minimal viable product.4:47
  60. To do this research, I plan to start by reaching out to founders, CEOs, CFOs at startups or bigger companies.4:48
  61. I'm also going to reach out to people on LinkedIn that have titles like carbon or climate or sustainability, basically, worse, they give me a hint that they might be4:57
  62. relevant people to talk to.5:07
  63. So what am I looking to learn?5:09
  64. Well, first, I'm trying to understand, do the company that they work for care about the carbon emissions and two, why do they care?5:10
  65. And why do they not care if they don't care?5:19
  66. And three, who in that company might be the one who cares the most about this and why?5:21
  67. All right, so here's two examples of outreach messages.5:26
  68. So the first one is a LinkedIn message to a CFO who I used to work with at Airbnb.5:30
  69. The message will go something like this.5:34
  70. First, I introduce myself, I mentioned something about our time at Airbnb.5:35
  71. Then I say, I'm starting a new project, briefly describe it, but not too much in detail.5:39
  72. And I just ask for a 20 minute phone call or a video call.5:43
  73. That's it.5:45
  74. And here's another example of a message to someone I don't know.5:46
  75. It's also on LinkedIn to the same group that I mentioned earlier.5:49
  76. It's similar, but geared towards people I don't know.5:53
  77. So the message will and the tone will be a little bit different.5:55
  78. All right, so once I get on the phone, or once again on the video call, let's talk about how to actually interview potential customers.5:58
  79. So first, you want to make sure that these interviews are over video calls, phone calls, or in person.6:07
  80. You can learn a lot more from a five minute video interview than 500 or 5000 survey responses.6:12
  81. Secondly, you want to build some report with the interview, they're going to give you answers to questions that maybe no one I've asked them before.6:19
  82. So you need to make sure that they can trust you and feel comfortable in this situation.6:26
  83. Next, the most important thing here, the most, most, most important thing here is to not introduce your idea till maybe at the end of the call or maybe not6:29
  84. at all.6:38
  85. Doing this too early can bias them in their answers.6:39
  86. Your role here in this interview is to listen, not to talk.6:42
  87. There are some great techniques to get people to open up and talk about their problems.6:47
  88. And one good one is to ask follow up questions that are open ended.6:51
  89. For example, tell me about that.6:55
  90. If you're not recording the interview, you should at least take notes as much as you can.6:57
  91. You need to translate the recordings to notes anyway.7:03
  92. So you might as well take notes in the actual interview.7:05
  93. I'm going to play an example video here on how a potential customer for my carbon emission company and how that conversation will go like.7:08
  94. Hi, how are you?7:17
  95. It's been a long time since we worked together at Airbnb.7:18
  96. Yeah, great to see you.7:21
  97. So I don't know if I told you this, but I'm thinking by starting another company.7:23
  98. And I have a couple of questions I wanted to ask you about this error that I'm interested in.7:27
  99. Does your company, Mind of You, Inc.7:31
  100. do you care about your carbon emissions?7:33
  101. We do actually care.7:36
  102. And we use a consultant who creates these PDF reports once a year.7:37
  103. Interesting.7:41
  104. What do you do with a report?7:43
  105. I mean, right now, I don't think we really take much action on it, unfortunately.7:45
  106. Well, why not?7:50
  107. It's just really hard to know what to do with the information.7:51
  108. The information is really dense and uses words we don't really understand.7:55
  109. Tell me more about that.7:59
  110. Well, we hired this consultant.8:01
  111. They asked us to fill out this word doc with information.8:04
  112. But much of the data that goes into it seems inaccurate.8:07
  113. And I just feel like we need another expert to figure out what to do with the data.8:11
  114. Got it.8:16
  115. Got it.8:17
  116. But why is it important for your company at all to track carbon emissions?8:18
  117. Well, our customers have been asking about our emissions and so has our bank when we try to get new loans.8:22
  118. And I think there's some regulations coming up too.8:28
  119. You notice here how I never introduced a product or a solution.8:32
  120. I only ask questions to learn about the problem that Amy's having.8:36
  121. I don't even say what I'm going to build.8:40
  122. That's how you want to do it.8:42
  123. Here are some very specific questions that you can use in your interviews.8:43
  124. One, tell me how you do X today by X.8:47
  125. Of course, I'm referring to a specific problem, a task or a goal that you are trying to solve.8:50
  126. Two, what is the hardest thing you are doing about X?8:55
  127. Three, why is it hard?8:58
  128. Four, how often do you have to do X?9:00
  129. Five, why is it important for your company to do X?9:03
  130. Make sure you dive deep into this question like understanding that motivation is going to be critical here.9:06
  131. And six, what do you do to solve this problem for yourself today?9:10
  132. It's really important to understand what they're doing.9:13
  133. Now, if you can watch them do this, that's even better.9:17
  134. If they can screen share during the video call or show you their laptop as you're doing the interview and show you how they actually get the PDF report, what9:21
  135. they do with it, how it looks like, that's the ideal state.9:30
  136. You want to deeply understand their behavior, not just what they're saying, but what they're doing because changing the behavior will be hard.9:35
  137. You can also ask follow -up questions and please learn how to make use of these ones.9:42
  138. It's very hard to get someone to say everything in just one answer to one question.9:46
  139. Get comfortable with asking questions like, what do you mean by that?9:50
  140. Or, can you tell me more about that?9:54
  141. Or, why is that important to you?9:56
  142. Here are some questions that you should not ask.9:58
  143. There are ways that you can kind of derail this interview.10:00
  144. Will you use our product?10:04
  145. They're probably going to say yes, but they're not going to mean anything to you in that answer.10:06
  146. Two, which features would make product exit better?10:11
  147. Remember, their job is to tell you about the problem.10:15
  148. Your job is to think about what features to solve that problem.10:18
  149. So, asking them about your job isn't really going to help you.10:22
  150. Yes and no questions.10:25
  151. It's not really that helpful for you.10:27
  152. You want them to explain and give you as many concrete and real examples as possible.10:28
  153. So, just simply asking yes and no questions is not ideal here.10:35
  154. Four, how would a better product acts look like to you?10:38
  155. How would a better carbon emission counting software look like to you?10:43
  156. Many of the people aren't product developers.10:47
  157. They're not software engineers.10:49
  158. They're not designers.10:50
  159. They're not product managers.10:50
  160. This is not their job.10:52
  161. Their job is to do a different job.10:53
  162. You are the one trying to understand what is the challenging part about their job.10:55
  163. Finally, asking two questions at the same time.11:01
  164. This is going to confuse them and confuse your answers.11:05
  165. When you're eager to get answers, it's very easy to do this thing but try to avoid it.11:08
  166. But I want to highlight one of the things I mentioned here.11:13
  167. There's one big danger during interviews and that is to focus on features instead of problems.11:16
  168. It's very natural for you to do that.11:20
  169. Your brain is thinking through all the ways you're going to solve this problem.11:22
  170. But really, what you're here for during this interview is to deeply understand the problems, not actually come up with solutions.11:27
  171. That's for a separate event.11:33
  172. Users generally have good problems but also generally bad solutions.11:36
  173. I'll give you two specific examples.11:41
  174. Early days of Gmail, users were asking Paul Buchheit, the founder of Gmail, to view both the inbox and the actual email that they were reading on the same screen.11:43
  175. Why would they ask for that?11:53
  176. The reason was simply that Gmail was too slow and people did not want to wait to load each of the emails in the inbox.11:55
  177. They wanted to see everything at the same time.12:01
  178. Similarly, in early Airbnb, a lot of guests wanted to have the phone numbers of the host so they can call them.12:02
  179. We're like, why do you need that?12:09
  180. It just turned out that they didn't fully trust the platform.12:11
  181. We had not displayed enough trust in Airbnb so they needed to feel comfortable with getting to know the host before actually making the booking.12:14
  182. Secondly, users don't have incentive to say no to really any additional features.12:22
  183. If you ask for this feature or this feature, this feature, they'll probably say yes to everything.12:28
  184. You, however, are in charge of the prioritizations and you have a lot more incentives than they have to figure out which are the most important of the features.12:32
  185. Let's talk about next steps.12:41
  186. You've done five or 10 of these user interviews.12:42
  187. You've written down your notes.12:46
  188. Let's talk about what you do then.12:48
  189. One, you want to make sure you have notes from all each of the interviews.12:50
  190. You can use sticky notes or some similar software to organize these learnings.12:52
  191. You can bucket them in different buckets that kind of describes different problems and see which one is actually the thing that matters the most.12:57
  192. And then you want to write down your conclusions.13:03
  193. What are your learning from all of this?13:05
  194. You want to use all of this information to create a hypothesis or what the solution to this problem might be.13:07
  195. Don't over intellectualize this process.13:12
  196. Really, you just want to start deciding MVP as fast as you can, but you want to make sure you have accurate information when you decide the MVP.13:13
  197. And then you want to test it with the same users.13:19
  198. It's also important to know if the problem you're solving is actually valuable.13:21
  199. What I mean by this is that people will value the solution to the problem enough to pay for it, or the problem itself, solving the problem is valuable.13:25
  200. So here's some good tips to determine if it is one, are people paying money for other solutions in the space today?13:33
  201. Are the people that make the PDF reports for carbon emissions accounting?13:39
  202. Are they getting paid?13:42
  203. Well, if they are getting paid, that's a good sign that this is probably a valuable thing.13:43
  204. Do people already have solutions to this problem they are very happy with?13:46
  205. Even though it might appear basics to you, for example, like Excel or Google spreadsheets is actually competitors to many, many, many, many hundreds of startups.13:50
  206. Actually quite formidable one to move someone off Excel or Google spreadsheet, you need to make the experience of your solution dramatically better.13:57
  207. They're not going to pay you $100 a month for something they can almost as easily do in Google spreadsheet or Excel.14:04
  208. And three, you want to evaluate how easy it is to sell to this audience.14:10
  209. And this is one thing that I like to do a lot with the companies I work with.14:14
  210. For example, selling to plumbers or contractors is notoriously difficult compared to selling to startups.14:17
  211. The first two groups just don't change their tools or the software very often versus startups are open to trying new things all the time.14:22
  212. So if you are solving a problem is valuable, you still have to think about whether it's going to be easy to sell to this particular audience.14:30
  213. Once you have an MEP prototype, you can start by showing it to users.14:36
  214. Even if it's just a design prototype in InVision or something like that, you can just click through.14:40
  215. We used to do this there and be all the time.14:44
  216. We go downstairs in our office, we find some people that were waiting for an interview or waiting for getting a coffee or something.14:47
  217. And we just show them the latest version of the app.14:54
  218. This would be an InVision prototype on our phone.14:57
  219. We'd just like hand them our phone and show it to them.14:59
  220. This is stuff that we haven't even built yet.15:03
  221. The key thing, but if you're doing this tactic, is to not tell them what to do.15:04
  222. Do not tell them what to do.15:10
  223. Just watch them play around with it.15:12
  224. You can tell them a specific goal like try to make a booking IEMB or try to do a search with dates on IEMB or something like that, but do15:13
  225. not tell them exactly how to solve each screen.15:20
  226. Remember, if this was the real product, you wouldn't be standing in the next of them to give them advice.15:23
  227. Another good trick when you're doing this, either when you're listening or recording them, is to have them speak their mind while they're doing it.15:28
  228. Have them describe exactly what they're thinking on each of the steps.15:36
  229. Maybe the words that they're reading, maybe that will give you hints of what words that they understand and which words that they don't understand, or maybe what specific screen15:39
  230. means or what the purpose is.15:46
  231. And after you've done a bunch of these interviews and then maybe MVP prototype sessions, it's a great idea to keep these interviewees involved throughout the process.15:48
  232. One common idea that a lot of WIC companies are using is to create a Slack instance or a WhatsApp group with their customers.15:57
  233. Now, you want to make them feel special, right?16:04
  234. You want to make them feel like they have exclusive active access to the future world -changing product.16:06
  235. So, think about how you are wording or how you communicate this WhatsApp group that you add in them to.16:12
  236. It's a great idea to keep showing them your prototype as they are progressing.16:18
  237. They kind of give them this exclusive feeling that I'm the first one to see this product as it's progressing.16:21
  238. And also, as you are reacting to things that they're saying, you can ship a new screen with a new version of the product and that builds trust with them.16:27
  239. They now know that you react to their feedback very fast.16:39
  240. Finally, some of them will love connecting with other people, doing the same thing as they are.16:41
  241. They don't get to do this very often and you are the one enabling that.16:47
  242. If you do all these steps, you will collect the right information from your future users.16:51
  243. You will keep them involved and that allow you to transfer the information into your first prototype and MVP.16:55
  244. So, to summarize, here's what I covered today, why the best founders talk to their users throughout the lifetime of the company, how to find your users and how to17:03
  245. talk to them, what questions to ask them or what not to ask them, and finally how to turn some of those conclusions into an MVP.17:11
  246. Thank you, everyone.17:19

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spreadsheets, sustainability, spreadsheet, inbox, motivations, startup
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